SF7 - my initial thoughts

[kneighbour]

I have been testing SF7 for a few days now, and it might be useful to put down a few thoughts - perhaps I am mistaken in a few areas and I can be corrected!

I am a Wise user but want to move onto something more modern and more flexible. I hate the Windows Installer, and the problems it can cause, so anything that does not use that system is way ahead of the game.

I also need a few extra dialog boxes - my application needs to ask for application and data paths - both totally separate. Amazingly enough, this is where most installer programs fall down.

SF7 is great in most areas - the problems it has (as I see it) are

- it compresses very poorly. The same application using Wise is around 23 megs. With SF7 it is 29 megs. Since this is a download file, it is not an inconsiderable problem.

- there is no way to "test" your install. You have to fully compile it, switch to your explorer (or let SF7 switch for you), then run the generated file. This is very slow and awkward.

- debugging is rather awkward. Certainly not as good as Wise (which you can single step through the process).

- you HAVE to be a programmer to use it. Almost everything is done with Actions (which is programming). This is not a terrible handicap for me as I am a programmer, but for a lot of people it would be an issue.

- a few things seem to be left out, which is puzzling. For example, it is extremely common for the last install dialog to have a checkbox to let the user run the installed program. Not SU7! Mind you, you can create one with a bit of effort, but it is weird that it is missing. You also cannot programmatically hide/show screens. This would seem to be essential, and while it can be done in code with SF7, it is awkward.

- the BIG problem. You only have a limited number of Dialog types that you can use. ie I want to have a dialog that has checkboxes and radio buttons. Sorry, not possible. And there are a few other types I would like. You can make as many copies of the existing types, and you can edit those as far as you are allowed, but that is not always enough. This is the single biggest problem I have found.

- you cannot change the order of installing files. They are installed in the order you add the files to the list. This can be a real time consuming problem if you get it wrong the first time through!

On the plus side, it is a fairly simple system to use (unlike Installshield 12), it works reliably, and is fairly flexible. All in all, it is a pretty good system, and probably better than Wise, which was my aim all along (but not by much).

If any of my points are wrong, then I would be glad to hear of it.

[Brett]

I have been testing SF7 for a few days now, and it might be useful to put down a few thoughts - perhaps I am mistaken in a few areas and I can be corrected!

I am a Wise user but want to move onto something more modern and more flexible. I hate the Windows Installer, and the problems it can cause, so anything that does not use that system is way ahead of the game.

I also need a few extra dialog boxes - my application needs to ask for application and data paths - both totally separate. Amazingly enough, this is where most installer programs fall down.

Thanks for considering Setup Factory and for taking the time to leave us feedback. I have responded to some of your specific requests below:

SF7 is great in most areas - the problems it has (as I see it) are

- it compresses very poorly. The same application using Wise is around 23 megs. With SF7 it is 29 megs. Since this is a download file, it is not an inconsiderable problem.

The compression is comprable to Zip compression for the most part. But that is an

- there is no way to "test" your install. You have to fully compile it, switch to your explorer (or let SF7 switch for you), then run the generated file. This is very slow and awkward.

Good suggestion. We will definitely consider that one. One work-around is to use Build configurations. Make a build configuration (Publish > Settings) called "TEST". Then select all of your files and select Project > File Properies from the menu. Then go to the conditions tab and deselect the "TEST" build configuration. That way when you do a test build it will not include any files.

- debugging is rather awkward. Certainly not as good as Wise (which you can single step through the process).

You can turn on a debug window that allows you to output anything you want at runtime. Use the action Debug.ShowWindow to show the debug window and Debug.Print to send text to it. A step-by-step debugger is a great idea also of course. We have it on our suggestions list for sure!

- you HAVE to be a programmer to use it. Almost everything is done with Actions (which is programming). This is not a terrible handicap for me as I am a programmer, but for a lot of people it would be an issue.

I disagree somewhat with you here. The GUI and dialog interfaces handle most common setup tasks without any scripting whatsoever. If someone does need to use scripting there is always the Action Wizard to make it easy to create actions. We actually have a lot of users who would not consider themselves programmers by any stretch.

- a few things seem to be left out, which is puzzling. For example, it is extremely common for the last install dialog to have a checkbox to let the user run the installed program. Not SU7! Mind you, you can create one with a bit of effort, but it is weird that it is missing. You also cannot programmatically hide/show screens. This would seem to be essential, and while it can be done in code with SF7, it is awkward.

- the BIG problem. You only have a limited number of Dialog types that you can use. ie I want to have a dialog that has checkboxes and radio buttons. Sorry, not possible. And there are a few other types I would like. You can make as many copies of the existing types, and you can edit those as far as you are allowed, but that is not always enough. This is the single biggest problem I have found.

Our challenge with the screens was making them flexible but yet relatively easy to use. We find that once you introduce a full-blown dialog editor things get MUCH more complicated. However, your points are valid and we are always looking at ways to make the screens better.

- you cannot change the order of installing files. They are installed in the order you add the files to the list. This can be a real time consuming problem if you get it wrong the first time through!

Actually you can change the installation order. Go into the properties of a file (double-click it) and on the Advanced tab you can change the Install order. By default all files are install order 1000 but you can adjust files relative to that number to change the installation order.

On the plus side, it is a fairly simple system to use (unlike Installshield 12), it works reliably, and is fairly flexible. All in all, it is a pretty good system, and probably better than Wise, which was my aim all along (but not by much).

If any of my points are wrong, then I would be glad to hear of it.

Setup Factory's goal is to be extremely flexible but as easy to use as possible. While those goals often conflict, we feel that we have struck a pretty good balance. One of the best parts of going with Indigo Rose products is the support and care you will recieve as a customer. Go post a bunch of suggestions at InstallShield's site and see if one of their programmers responds in a point-by-point fashion...

[kneighbour]

I disagree somewhat with you here. The GUI and dialog interfaces handle most common setup tasks without any scripting whatsoever. If someone does need to use scripting there is always the Action Wizard to make it easy to create actions. We actually have a lot of users who would not consider themselves programmers by any stretch.

mmm...I suggest that it would have to be a pretty simple install to not have to resort to Actions (programming). Try installing a Service, or asking whether your program should run on Startup. Anyway, I do agree that the Actions are extremely well thought out and the Help (and examples) are first class.

Our challenge with the screens was making them flexible but yet relatively easy to use. We find that once you introduce a full-blown dialog editor things get MUCH more complicated. However, your points are valid and we are always looking at ways to make the screens better.

I suggest that you simply need a few more combinations, ie checkboxes/radio, checkbox/edit, radio/edit, etc.

For example, I want to do a very common thing. I want to ask a user if they want to create shortcuts (yes or no). ie a checkbox perhaps. If yes, then do they want to place a shortcut in the Startup folder as well? I do not think that this is possible unless I turn off the automatic shortcut creation and do it all in code. And it is a huge task to hide/show windows, etc.

Actually you can change the installation order. Go into the properties of a file (double-click it) and on the Advanced tab you can change the Install order. By default all files are install order 1000 but you can adjust files relative to that number to change the installation order.

I did notice that counter - thanks for pointing it out.

Setup Factory's goal is to be extremely flexible but as easy to use as possible. While those goals often conflict, we feel that we have struck a pretty good balance. One of the best parts of going with Indigo Rose products is the support and care you will recieve as a customer. Go post a bunch of suggestions at InstallShield's site and see if one of their programmers responds in a point-by-point fashion...

Yes, I think you have done a good job. And this forum is one of your biggest selling points, I have to agree.

If I can suggest something else - one of your biggest selling points is that you can remove your program COMPLETELY. It is not terribly easy to do (see other posts in this forum), but it is possible. This is so much better than Installshield this point alone can sell your product. It is certainly one of the biggest points with my bosses - they do not care how hard it is to do some things - that is MY job. They care about looks (one of the worst things about Wise) - under the theory that the first impression is very important. Then the fact that nothing is installed in Windows any where, and that we remove ourselves completely. Not just most stuff, but completely.

Keep up the good work.