Video Editors

[rhosk]

This is actually a sequel to this thread (http://indigorose.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14642), but I didn't want to hi-jak.

Eric_Darling was absolutely correct when he said that (paraphrasing) "all *.vob files were not created equal". I originally chimed in and said that all you should really have to do to make it editable was to change the extension to *.mpg. Not the case.

I recently purchased a dvd camcorder and ran a test. Tried to change the extension and my computer didn't like the audio codec (ac3 - dolby 5.1). It crashed WMP for starters. Anyway, after splitting the audio and video and converting the ac3 into wav stereo, I managed to create a multiplex'd mpeg file. Entirely too much trouble, so I downloaded the trial version of Adobe Premiere Elements and this editor seems amazing. It recognizes this particular *.vob format without any trouble and, after looking deeper into the program, has a lot of compatable formats for both import & export.

My question is: Has anyone had any experience with this program? Pros/Cons, bugs, reliability in general. It doesn't have a bad price ($99 USD) and thought I would again come to the experts for advice. I'm not looking to do anything 'professional' in nature, although it seems that this program has many pro features. Any feedback would be great.

[bnkrazy]

I have used Premiere (not sure of the version) in the past with great results...It has been a while, but I don't remember any problems when doing a simple camcorder to set-top dvd output. I believe I used VCD format because that was back before dvd's were affordable. At the time I thought the dvd menu options were a bit restrictive, but overall it was a simple straight forward process to get the job done. :yes

[Eagle]

fwiw: goto the ulead.com site and check out their 'comparison chart',

pretty sure they are always wanting to top premiere versions,
I ain't been there for quite a while, maybe worth a looky looky ?.

Premiere was cpu hungrier at some point vs equiv Ulead..

[eric_darling]

Yeah - just wait until you try to do that with DTS audio instead of AC-3. You thought that was tough!

In either case, I can't say too much about Adobe's video products (other than After Effects, of which I know entirely too much), but it sounds pretty good. I'm a Mac video guy, and Adobe shunned the Mac platform a long time ago.

[yosik]

I would (again) recommend the TMPG line of products.
They have a AC3 Audio Plugin hich, after being installed, comes to the help of TMPGExpress 3.0 and allows conversions, easily.

Yossi

[AGRO]

Hey Eric, just curious what programs you use on your mac for video?

[eric_darling]

Hey Eric, just curious what programs you use on your mac for video?
Tons. I have even been making the toe dips into Final Cut Pro lately. Here's my little laundry list, since you asked...

1) After Effects 6.5 (the king, and still champion, of compositing)
2) DVD Studio Pro 3 (the next best thing to Scenarist, for which I don't have enough $$$)
3) Cinematize 2 (for ripping elementary streams or QT versions of DVDs)
4) DV Films' Atlantis (converting PAL<->NTSC)
5) Media 100i 8.2.2 (my main editing tool for over a decade)
6) Sorenson Squeeze 4.1 (compression of video)
7) BitVice 1.6 (boutique quality MPEG-2 conversion for DVD application)
8) A.Pack for AC-3 audio conversion (comes w/ DVD Studio Pro)
9) Flip4Mac Studio 2(for WMV-9 on Mac)
10) QuickTime 7.0.4 Pro (great for a lot of stuff)
11) SoundSoap (this is just for audio, really, but so good I had to include)

I plan on finally moving away from M100 this year, and go true HD with a Final Cut Pro system running a Kona LHe card on a new Intel powered Mac. But, until a desktop that can run that card on Intel is available, I'm staying put. I figure it will be sometime in 2006, though. I'm also upgrading the video camera to a new HD model this year, too, which will necessitate that move on the post-production side of things.

[AGRO]

That is quite a list, thanks.:yes

[Corey]

Yep, awesome post. :yes

[eric_darling]

Some of those programs have Windows versions, others have relative equivalents (for instance, if stuck using Windows, I'd use Adobe Encore in place of DVD Studio Pro), but I still think that if you're really serious about doing video these days, you need to consider going with a Macintosh. The main reason is simple - Final Cut Pro. As much a good program as Adobe Premiere is, it's no match for the outright professional level power of FCP, which, of course, is Mac-only. Not to mention, you'll enjoy the company of a vast majority of fellow producers. That leads to good things in everything from finding answers to your esoteric technical questions to third-party hardware support being robust and constantly developed. Can't argue with the power of a dominant player in a market.

I am also a fool for the Mac OS. It's just great. But, there are plenty of people who feel otherwise, and I understand - for real. I can say that with a straight face because I use both OS X and Windows XP each and every day of my life. I have both kinds of computers at home and office. I'm probably just as productive on both. But I just like OS X better. Personal preference counts, I guess.

[AGRO]

...if stuck using Windows, I'd use ...

:D :D :D :D :D

[Corey]

Can't argue with the power of a dominant player in a market.
Paris Hilton?

[eric_darling]

Paris Hilton?
For shizzel. Ya got me there. :)

[Corey]

Don't feel bad, even Sartre would have been pressed to rationalize PH. :D

[azmanar]

hi,

For video editing, has anyone used Sony Vegas 6 or Pinnacle Liquid Avid?

Please comment.

[yosik]

Pinnacle Liquid Avid? That's a misnomer... IT was Pinnacle Liquid Edition and it is now Liquid Avid...
Anyway, yes. I have been using Liquid since the days of Fast Multimedia and the 601 (thru Silver up to liquid). I like the interface very much, but don't like the "heaviness" of the program. More than once you feel some sort of slugginess in the workflow.
Maybe now that Avid has bought Pinacle, they will incorporate this GUI into the Avid line....Speculations...

Yossi

[Corey]

I'm not big on any of the Sony software anymore for two reasons:

1. All the new titles seem to install some sort of unrelated file which starts with Windows. Probably not a "rootkit" but definitely unlike any other software which I use. The Sony installer is the only one which my security software alerts on in that particular manner, and I've installed hundreds of titles over the years. Not a good sign any way you slice it IMO.

2. They all require dotnet framework but no other software I use does, so I don't want to bother installing the dotnet runtime just for one title. Sony is the only software company on the market which forces you to install the dotnet runtime AFAIK. I doubt that speaks well of their process but I might be wrong.

That being said Vegas is supposed to be great. I have Vegas 4.0 here (doesn't require dotnet) and found it to be decent when I used it a while back.

[eric_darling]

Vegas is the "Swiss army knife" of digital video - many respectable shops use it regularly for a variety of tasks. Some would consider it a "must have" program, even if it's not their primary editor.

[azmanar]

Vegas is the "Swiss army knife" of digital video - many respectable shops use it regularly for a variety of tasks. Some would consider it a "must have" program, even if it's not their primary editor.

Thanks for the tips guys.

The current edit suite we're having is Velocity. Some of my friends are using Adobe Premier + Elements.

I'm tilting towards buying Vegas+Acid soon but I will have to evaluate both software further after reading your comments.

[Syverson]

We started with Media 100 back in 1994, but over the years have moved our four video editing stations over to Windows and Premiere. The reason was simply cost/performance. The integration of the Adobe Products (particularly over the last few years) has been wonderful for our workflow in the Windows world. Now don't get me wrong, I bought my Mac Plus in 85 and have owned so many Macs over the years that Jobs should buy me many dinners and drinks. I still do all my audio work on a G4 Pro tools setup, but when that computer dies....I'll move to Windows. Not that I want to...but I can do so much for so little money.

I picked up an $800 HP machine for interactive testing. On a lark I loaded Premeire and After Effects....voila I had a new editing station. It flies.

I guess we all have to work with what we are confortable with, but as an old Mac evangelist, I now have gone to the dark side, and we're still making money.

The answer to this thread is to try every system, and software, and decide what works best for you. The reality is that every system can produce great video...if you are a great editor.

Cheers
Syverson

[Corey]

The reality is that every system can produce great video...if you are a great editor.
True. :yes

[eric_darling]

We started with Media 100 back in 1994, but over the years have moved our four video editing stations over to Windows and Premiere.
That's probably a good move, from the sounds of it - for you. I came lately to the self-employed world (January 2000), and I can say with certainty that I wouldn't still be using my M100 if it hadn't cost me so darn much for those first three years. I am amortizing the silicon out of that thing.

But, that's neither here nor there. I wouldn't recommend ANYONE get into M100 these days. You'd be a fool with tools like those we have at our disposal today. You actually didn't disagree with me - or with Derek (who hasn't contributed to this discussion, from what I can see).

[rhosk]

Thanks again everyone for the options. I've since downloaded Uleads' VideoStudio and testing both. The comparison charts didn't help much because as usual, they compare items which are mostly relevant to their respective program. In other words, Premiere has pluses that Ulead does not and vice-versa. They both "perform" as expected with regard to the editing process, although I haven't made a single output file yet, but I will, hopefully this weekend. I'm only looking for glitches/bugs at this point. Some items of interest if anyone reads:


Ulead accepts Flash as overlays :yes
Premiere exports to mov :yes
Ulead has better transitions (mo)
Premiere looks and feels more pro (not restricted to "wizards")
Ulead appears to have more templates/styles out of the box
Premiere definitely has more filters/effects


I guess it just depends on what you want or need.

[Corey]

One good thing about Vegas is that you can integrate practically any type of media, i.e. you can insert Flash movies the same way you would video clips. Seems to me it supported all popular video/audio formats for input as well as output.

Ulead is definitely more of a consumer level package than Premiere. But Premiere can be brutally slow in some PC environments whereas Ulead might be a bit quicker for light editing duties. Depends. I'd have to say the holy grail for a home PC user appears to be Vegas 6.0 at this time. Eric's description is very apt, it's a comprehensive tool which definitely acts like a swiss army knife in that sense. When I get the video ball rolling I'll probably bite the bullet and buy a copy.

Mind you, the whole video thing may not happen after all for me just yet. After about a year or so of work and investment, my little soundproof audio/video studio was due to be finished in about 2-4 weeks and then my landlord came by today out of the blue and said he's selling the house. So it's all toast, just like that. He had previously told us that he would definitely never sell this house, but he got caught in a crunch and the rest is history. I don't mind losing a little money taking a risk on something worthwhile, I couldn't care less about that aspect, but the time/effort and the emotional stake is deflating. I created such an awesome room in there too, balanced diffusion, floating floor, double walls, the whole 9 yards, and never even got to do a single recording in it. :)

Aaaahhh well, what's life without a little shake up now and again, it keeps the eye on the carrot... :D

[eric_darling]

Man, Corey. I feel your pain! I have been there before, and it does hurt.
Best of luck finding an even better space in the near future.

[Corey]

Thanks, I'm going to need it. The real estate market here is as tight as it gets. I may even have to switch cities. We'll see... :)

[rhosk]

Vegas...out of my price range for now. If I ever need a video editor for professional use, I'll look into that software.

And Corey, that's too bad. I know you were excited about the whole video/audio thing for a long time (and I, for one, was looking forward to the results). Good luck in your ventures - everything happens for a reason :)

[Corey]

Yes Vegas is not cheap. I agree with you there, it's out of my general range also. As for the move, I'll definitely turn it into an advantage somehow. :yes

One thing I *will not* miss is the fact that all our neighbors here have dogs that bark 24 hours per day. No matter where I end up it will be better than here in that regard, this place is the barkiest location I've ever encountered by a factor of about 5. Just the one tiny yard opposite my bedroom for example contains a full grown St. Bernard, a big German Shepard, and a medium sized lab cross, all of whom bark constantly. And that's only one of 7 yards facing ours which contain barking dogs. :wow

My roomate got pinned in the alley by the neighbor's pit bull last week actually. He was running loose at night (the dog that is) and caught Marv by surprise. And this dog is *not* to be trifled with, he's the text book pitbull with huge muscles and abusive owner. Scary, scary dog. Apparently my roomate tried to reason with him verbally but that only made him madder, so Marv slowly backed out of the alley and luckily the dog allowed him to go.

Actually the sole reason I had to put so much time and money into that studio room is those dogs. Just a crazy amount of constant dog noise 24/7 ranging all the way from sub-rumble (St. bernard + Pit bull) to mid range (German Shepard + Lab) to high end frequencies (Pekinese). A total nightmare to deal with, so at least that's one thing I won't have to worry about in the future, and I'm extremely happy about that. :)

What's up with people who buy dogs and then completely ignore them anyhow? In all my years here on earth I swear that is one of the most perplexing things I see normal people doing. I just don't get that one at all.

[azmanar]

Corey,

A few editors I met yesterday said the same thing you noted about Vegas and Premiere. Eric said the same about Vegas. I think Vegas is the best bet as a tool and so its decided. Thanks for the sincere comments, guys.

I'm sorry to hear about the circumstances you're facing. Happened to me once. Invested thousands of hard-earned cash creating a facility, then was forced to move out before I can launch it. Money can be recovered in time. What can't be recovered is Time taken building it and in promoting it. That's really frustrating and I was bitter for a while. Morale support from friends helped me got over it. So I didnt let it eat me up as I can consider it as a blessing in disguise and an experiential learning.

I'm sure you'll get a better option soon because you have a positive outlook on things.

[Corey]

I'm sorry to hear about the circumstances you're facing. Happened to me once. Invested thousands of hard-earned cash creating a facility, then was forced to move out before I can launch it. Money can be recovered in time. What can't be recovered is Time taken building it and in promoting it. That's really frustrating and I was bitter for a while. Morale support from friends helped me got over it. So I didnt let it eat me up as I can consider it as a blessing in disguise and an experiential learning.

I'm sure you'll get a better option soon because you have a positive outlook on things.

Yowch! :eek:

I agree, it's the time and effort, the money is nothing. I won't lose too much money actually, I can take the majority of the soundproofing, etc. with me. I'll probably only lose about $1,000 or so in actually money... And a couple hundred hours in planning and work. Not too bad all things considered.

Anyhow you're right, it's definitely going to lead to something better. With a little effort and some luck of course... I'm sure I'll start to get excited about it once the initial shock wears off. :D

[AXXESS]

FWIW Adobe Premiere 2.0 now exports to .swf and has built in multicam editing.... :yes :yes :yes

Maybe Adobe buying Macromedia was a good thing... :cool

[AXXESS]

Whoops, it exports to .flv... still cool... :yes

[azmanar]

The best thing about Pinnacle is the external AVID LIQUID Pro CAPTURE/COMPRESSION BOX using FireWire to PC.

It accepts analog and digital inputs as well as analog and digital outputs. The latest one 6 Cam inputs, Audio I/O, and even a Print-To-Tape output.

Saves all the processing power and hardisk space, when using such BOXes. Some friends are using internal MATROX cards, which does the same. It is a universal card for all.

Has anyone used such PINNACLE Capture Box ported to other video editing software?

[azmanar]

Hi,

Here is a list of bi-directional AD/DA universal video converters, to reduce load on PC environment as well as getting real-time rendering:
1. DataVideo Dac 10
2. Canopus ADVC 300
3. Matrox RTX 100
4. AVID Mojo

For high quality video/audio capture, either USB 2.0 or IEEE is needed. They support NTSC/PAL/SECAM. They are plug n play.

I also discovered that Vegas works well even without the converters above. It is extremely light-weight and has realtime rendering. No wonder they don't even mentioned recommended hardware. But the hardware helps to accept analog inputs from VHS/HI8 for restoration.

[azmanar]

Ron,

Check out the www.magix.com . Have you visited this site? The Movie Edit Pro 10 software is amazing.

Normally, to do some of the video effects they have, my editors would use at least 5 or 6 layers, set the movement parameters in DVE and then render them. The Movie Edit Pro is doing it in a few clicks and ZERO RENDER. And the software comes along with VCD/DVD authoring tool. Very lightweight. A good tool for broadcast conceptual rough-edit, company presentation or final cut for home videos.

I dont know whether the software can do direct Flash overlay.

What most video editors do is Capture Flash Sequence into TARGA or PNG with alpha channel, then Overlay em 25 frames per second.

[eric_darling]

Well, if you were Ron or me, you'd be rendering anything video at 30 FPS, since we're in an NTSC country. :)

There's no doubt that post-production tools like this have gotten much more robust and much more plentiful lately. So, on that side of the production chain, the barriers to entry have lowered considerably. And a diverse choice of tools are available.

Of course, it doesn't take bells and whistles to create compelling content - that's the job of the human sitting on the other side of the screen. I firmly believe in avoiding fancy transitions and effects whenever possible, since they largely serve as unmotivated window dressing for what otherwise might be considered less than optimum content.

[azmanar]

Well, if you were Ron or me, you'd be rendering anything video at 30 FPS, since we're in an NTSC country. :)


PAL here. I agree with you. Content is King but cannot go naked. Give em nice clothes, make-ups and nice sounds. Content would be STRIKING as they roll.

[eric_darling]

Don't forget the crew, lighting, proper field sound equipment, and everything else that really makes it good. :)

[azmanar]

Don't forget the crew, lighting, proper field sound equipment, and everything else that really makes it good. :)

....They are the artist and the builders ..... without em, Content has no face and homeless.

But then again, it all goes back to the original source - The Content Architect aka Producer.

[rhosk]

Ron,

Check out the www.magix.com . Have you visited this site? The Movie Edit Pro 10 software is amazing.

It looks promising, thanks azmanar! I'm really liking the real-time video effects controller :yes

Do you own the program? I hate the way demo versions leave out features (you have to purchase in order to utilize some of the features). Most demos should be full featured with time limits only (MO) or maybe a pop message saying it's a demo; leaving all features intact. But anyway, still liking what I see so far.

[azmanar]

It looks promising, thanks azmanar! I'm really liking the real-time video effects controller :yes

Do you own the program? I hate the way demo versions leave out features (you have to purchase in order to utilize some of the features). Most demos should be full featured with time limits only (MO) or maybe a pop message saying it's a demo; leaving all features intact. But anyway, still liking what I see so far.

I agree. The output is more professional than most cookie-cutter templates editors. I tested it. You might want to see some comments here by others : http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/280916

The Video Editor Product is only shipped on CD to US and Canada. Packaged along with rich clips and sounds. E-Versions ( downloadable ) has less content samples.

Both versions are supported with more contents, which are downloadable through their iPACE Club. Lots of photos and cheap too.

Demo versions cannot write to DVD & VCD. But you can test their effects to your heart's content.

In a few hours time, I'll click the check-out button for the e-Version. It's for building samples quickly and conceptual proposals for clients. This is not for broadcast. For broadcast, it should be Vegas.

Please remember that they never mentioned about Flash Imports. So I guess, u have to use a 3rd party Flash-to-Movie exporter and then import it.

Download first before you buy, Ron.

[eric_darling]

They are the artist and the builders ..... without em, Content has no face and homeless.

But then again, it all goes back to the original source - The Content Architect aka Producer.
Well, as is so often the case in my world, the Producer is an employee or contractor of a business entity that does not call video/film production their central business - creativity is often tempered by that fact. The original source is probably not the Producer, but some internal client such as the Director of Marketing, or President, or even the Department Head of some division. As with any performing art, video/film production relies on all players. It's a team effort in every sense of the word. And so often, the DP plays just as integral a role as the producer. I like to employ DPs who understand that they have the reigns on location, and it's their responsibility to communicate what I need both to their crew and through the lens. When it comes to the kinds of work I am doing, the job of a producer revolves around building trust and vision for the client. It's the DP who must translate all that into something for the screen.

[rhosk]

Download first before you buy, Ron.

Oh, I did download their trial. The only thing that I can't get to work is the ac3 import. I'm getting close with the codec configurations, but the most I can get is the whole video and no audio (started off as just a piece of vob video with weird converted sound). Other than that, I really like the sound editing features, video controller - awesome!, etc. For instance, you could easily make several PIP's with a couple of clicks. It's a powerful program for the price. If I can figure out the vob/ac3 import, then I'm sold :)

[azmanar]

Well, as is so often the case in my world, the Producer is an employee or contractor of a business entity.

Exactly Eric,

The Producers translate ideas from Content Owners, so it will be projected and presented well for the Owners' purposes.

I also agree that, with teamwork, most objectives will be met in a production.

[Corey]

They should do an episode of punk'd where they send a bunch of pro wrestlers over to Eric's studio to perform Macbeth with Steve-O from Jackass as the DP. And for an added touch have Donald Trump phone in every 12 minutes to ask what's taking so long? That would be classic. :yes

[eric_darling]

That would be classic.
For a very small, inconsequential audience... :)

On the other hand - if they're paying, I'm up for it!

[Corey]

Now *that's* "must see TV". :D

[azmanar]

I'm getting close with the codec configurations, but the most I can get is the whole video and no audio (started off as just a piece of vob video with weird converted sound).

Ron,

Say you want to import a video from VCD. Open the DAT file with Windows Media Player. "Save As" the file with extension *.mpg.

Then, by using the Media Edit Pro " object screen " which is located to the right of the "preview screen", goto the folder you saved the mpg file. When you see the file icon, double click it, it will appear on your preview screen. Another way is to drag the mpg file to the timeline.

Immediately you will see 2 lines filled: 1 Video and 1 Audio. I tested this with a 680Mb mpg file. The video and audio is synchronized without a hitch. No distortion, no runaway audio. It imported in seconds.

I dont know the reason, but if I drag an AVI video file, only the Audio appeared on the timeline. Video is lost. As though its importing Audio only. On the positive side, the audio is very crisp.

[yosik]

FWIW,
VCD IS an Mpeg1 file. It is just coded with particular parameters, 1150 kbps for the video and 224 kbps for the audio. That's why it is simple to "import" .dat file. You don't import it, you just change the extension.
As to your AVI file, it looks like you lack the proper video codec and that's why you hear the audio but don't see the video.
Suggestion: download and install AVICODEC, a nice little util which shows you the codec of an AVI file and, BTW, what codec you have installed on your machine.

Good luck

Yossi

[azmanar]

FWIW,

Suggestion: download and install AVICODEC, a nice little util which shows you the codec of an AVI file and, BTW, what codec you have installed on your machine.

Yossi

Yossi,

Thanks for the good tip on the above.

[rhosk]

Ron,

Say you want to import a video from VCD. Open the DAT file with Windows Media Player. "Save As" the file with extension *.mpg.

Then, by using the Media Edit Pro " object screen " which is located to the right of the "preview screen", goto the folder you saved the mpg file. When you see the file icon, double click it, it will appear on your preview screen. Another way is to drag the mpg file to the timeline.

Immediately you will see 2 lines filled: 1 Video and 1 Audio. I tested this with a 680Mb mpg file. The video and audio is synchronized without a hitch. No distortion, no runaway audio. It imported in seconds.

I dont know the reason, but if I drag an AVI video file, only the Audio appeared on the timeline. Video is lost. As though its importing Audio only. On the positive side, the audio is very crisp.

Nah, it doesn't matter. I'm trying to import a vob file from a DVD. It definitely has something to do with the ac3 codec/settings. I've changed the vob extension to mpg to no avail (still treats it the same). I'm fairly certain that I could demux the files and then import the wav and the video, but I'd like to do it all in one step. I've tried ac3 codecs, filters, acm's, etc and nothing seems to work. It's funny that it has the ability to output dolby 5.1, but it doesn't seem to support the import part, and nothing really at their forums either.

[Corey]

I think it's a lot harder to add media format import features than the equivalent export features. For example, it's not that complicated to author a basic .swf file but it's tricky to parse a .swf if there's lot of embedded independent movie clips. I might be wrong but I think that explains why so often you see programs with tons of export formats and only a couple import formats. :)